Author Mark Yarm on the History of Grunge

By The Hairpin April 10, 2012

by Melissa Locker

If you ever want to know anything about the history of grunge music, Mark Yarm is the guy to ask. His book Everybody Loves Our Town (out now in paperback) is the definitive oral history of the ’90s music scene. He stopped by Turntable.fm to talk with us about Nirvana, Pearl Jam 20, and how smiley faces make the world go round.

Melissa Locker started playing “The Man Who Sold The World (Live)” by Nirvana

Mark Yarm: Hey … OK, let’s go!
ML: Do you think grunge came to the mainstream world thanks to Nirvana?
MY: Yes, you can’t overstate the impact “Smells Like Teen Spirit” had on music.
ML: So do you think Nirvana was the best of the bunch? Or just the most accessible?
MY: Alternative had been creeping into the mainstream for some time (Jane’s Addiction, Faith No More), but never on such a large scale. Nirvana were both great AND accessible.
ML: Did you ever see them?
MY: No. I missed my chances. The first time I wanted to see them, they were playing an FNX fest in Boston — this was right when Nevermind came out. But the friend I was gonna go with bailed. Did you see them?

Mark Yarm started playing “Negative Creep” by Nirvana

ML: I did. I had a misspent youth and would go see them on school nights in high school.
MY: Sounds like a well-spent youth.
ML: Yes! I think so too.
ML: What drew you to write such a very very large oral history of grunge?
MY: I wrote an oral history of Sub Pop for Blender, where I was an editor, on the occasion of the label’s 20th anniversary. I had lots of material left over, and it did occur to me that I could turn this into something larger, but I never would have done so had the guy who’s now my agent not approached me with the idea of writing an oral history of grunge as a whole.
ML: It’s a pretty impressive feat! Who was the hardest interview to get? Was there anyone who just didn’t want to talk about the glory days of grunge?
MY: Frankly, that was the worst part of the whole process: hunting people down. So much (polite) cajoling!

Mark Yarm started playing “He’s My Thing” by Babes In Toyland

MY: Oddly, it was easier to get someone like Courtney [Love] to talk than some folks far less famous. But, yeah, some people don’t want to revisit those days. I can empathize: who wants to be asked over and over about events that happened when they were 20? Well, actually, lots of people do, but I can understand why one would not.
ML: Was there anyone you couldn’t get to talk?
MY: The Pearl Jam guys. First, they don’t do much press, but also they had their own book/movie coming out. But I had spoken to Jeff and Stone for the Blender piece, and Matt Cameron I snagged through a loophole (I got him through the Soundgarden folks). But I did interview all their old drummers, which Cameron Crowe didn’t bother to do.
ML: What did you make of Pearl Jam 20?
MY: Yes, speaking of Cameron Crowe. Not a fan. I have a lot of respect for Cameron Crowe (dude wrote Fast Times!), but PJ20 was a shallow, poorly structured movie. The main thing it had going for it was the rare footage the filmmakers unearthed. But you’re not going to really learn much about Pearl Jam — who they are as individuals, how they operate as a unit — from this movie.
ML: It seemed more like a fan’s love notes than a strict documentary.
MY: Definitely, which is why fans love the movie. But if you want to learn something about PJ, or the scene from whence they came, you’d be better served elsewhere. Like by reading my book!

Mark Yarm started playing “Overblown” by Mudhoney

ML: Oh this is the song that lent your book its name!
MY: Yes. When I told Mudhoney singer Mark Arm (no relation, readers) that I was gonna name my book after a lyric of his, his reaction was pretty succinct: “Eh.”
ML: Did your name similarity, Mark Yarm vs Mark Arm, open interview doors for you?
MY: It was a great icebreaker. Probably helped a lot.
ML: I hope you thanked your parents!
MY: I owe my dad a thank you card, I suppose.
ML: I always had a soft spot for Mark Arm because he snuck me into my first 21 and over show when I was 16 or something.
MY: Aw, so sweet.

Melissa Locker started playing “Say It” by Calamity Jane

ML: Now this band, Calamity Jane, opened for Nirvana, but no one seems to know who they are outside of Portland.
MY: Yes, opening for Nirvana by no means ensured success, or even name recognition. Just ask Chokebore.
ML: But they were so great! Fine, yes, point taken. My real question though is that Calamity Jane is a girl-fronted band, do you think grunge was mostly a male movement?
MY: Oh, yeah. Even though there were obviously all-women grunge bands (like Dickless), the big four are all-male.
ML: Do you think that women were just not drawn to the music? Because it seems like a PC-ish scene, but there aren’t that many women bands.

Mark Yarm started playing “C Word” by Dickless

MY: L7, Babes in Toyland, and 7 Year Bitch were all labeled grunge (and riot grrrl, too). They just weren’t as successful.
ML: What is the cross over between Riot Grrl and Grunge? I mean, Kathleen Hanna of Bikini Kill named “Smells Like Teen Spirit.”
MY: Yes, she did, indirectly. Yes, though, then Courtney came along…
ML: Right, Courtney. What was it like interviewing her?
MY: I like to describe it as predictably unpredictable. Basically, you’d ask her a question, she’d go off on some long, wild tangent, then eventually loop back around to address what you asked about an hour ago.
ML: Well, as long as she answered the question I guess.

Melissa Locker started playing “Would?” by Alice In Chains

ML: How did you decide to do an oral history instead of just a history.
MY: There was never much thought put into it on my part. The original Blender article was an oral history and my now-agent approached me with the idea of doing the book in that format.
ML: And then 250 interviews later you had the definitive oral history of the movement How long does it take to conduct 250 interviews?
MY: You make it sound so easy.
ML: Hahahaha.

Mark Yarm started playing “Big Cigar” by Cat Butt

MY: The book was done over the course of 2 1/2 or so years. But it wasn’t like I was interviewing people every day. As I mentioned earlier, these things take time to line up.
ML: I have never heard of a band named Cat Butt, outside of your book.
MY: I was gonna say.
MY: Yeah, they were fairly obscure on a national level. Though Guided by Voices namecheck them in a song. “Come on over tonight/We’ll put on some Cat Butt ’n’ do it up right.”
ML: If you name your band Cat Butt you are most likely not headed for commercial success.
MY: Well, I don’t think commercial success was really on many folks’ minds at that point in time, especially in Seattle.
ML: Who was the most commercially successful? Pearl Jam, right?

Melissa Locker started playing “Doll Parts” by Hole

MY: Most successful? Creed!
ML: No way. Really?
MY: I wish I had the stats in front of me, but Human Clay sold an ungodly — or perhaps godly, given their religious bent — number of units.
ML: Wow. That’s pretty impressive for a band no one will admit to liking.
MY: 11× platinum, 1×(+) diamond (January 2004) according to Wikipedia! As of January 2004.
ML: What was the most surprising fact to come out of your book?

Mark Yarm started playing “Night Goat” by Melvins

MY: Where are all those CDs now? On the floors of 11 million muscle cars.
ML: I really don’t know anyone who would admit to listening to Creed.
MY: Ha. One of my former Blender colleagues, Jonah Weiner, wrote an essay for Slate extolling their virtues.
ML: Did he buy all 11 million CDs?
MY: I do not know how he obtained their music.
ML: Can I ask you about Eddie Vedder and Bill Clinton?
ML: Basically my question is this: WTF?
MY: That’s such a great story. The day after Kurt killed himself, Pearl Jam were coincidentally at the White House. Eddie Vedder told Clinton not to address the nation about Kurt’s suicide, fearing it would lead to copycats. Meanwhile, Mudhoney — whom PJ had brought along as a favor to them — are on the White House tour, wandering around stoned.
ML: That says a LOT about the ’90s. What was your favorite tidbit to uncover during your research?

Mark Yarm started playing “Touch Me I’m Dick” by Citizen Dick

MY: I loved that backstage at Nirvana’s first SNL taping, Kurt Cobain was telling Bruce Pavitt of Sub Pop how he’d like to open a petting zoo. Imagine that!
MY: This is the Mudhoney takeoff the guys in Mookie Blaylock (later Pearl Jam) recorded. It’s in Singles for like a second.
ML: I know! I recognized it. Speaking of chicks, you say that Madonna made a play for the guy from Candlebox … and he turned her down.
ML: Who turns down Madonna?

Melissa Locker started playing “Another Shot Of Whiskey” by The Gits

MY: Kevin Martin of Candlebox. He did say it was a “you don’t tell Tony Soprano ‘no’” type of situation.
ML: But he still said no.
MY: He had a girlfriend at the time (she worked for Madonna’s label). There’s a punchline to the story but I don’t wanna give it away.
ML: Okay.
ML: Everyone go buy Mark’s book to find the punchline! This song by The Gits just reminds me of the murder of Mia Zapata, so it’s super uplifting.
MY: The Mia Zapata rape and murder was hard to talk to people about, but her former bandmates and her friends in 7 Year Bitch had had a lot of time to process, so they were really open about it.
ML: I was actually living in Seattle at that time. It was a very scary thing.
ML: Everyone was looking over their shoulders and people were organizing ride shares to get people home safe.
MY: The Home Alive organization came out of it, though.
ML: Yep! And Right Rides in New York. Girls, you can get home safe!
MY: Um, maybe we should end on a more uplifiting note?
ML: Very possibly.
MY: A fun question??
ML: Kurt Cobain’s first suicide attempt? I know, I know, I’ll just put a smiley face, Like this:
ML: Let’s talk about Kurt Cobain’s first suicide attempt 🙂
MY: Ha. Ha.

Mark Yarm started playing “Chloe Dancer/Crown Of Thorns” by Mother Love Bone

MY: Yeah, that’s one very interesting thing Courtney told me: that Kurt’s first suicide attempt (with a note) came months before the well-known attempt in Rome.
ML: Oh jeeze.
MY: Um, it’s getting sad in this Turntable room.
ML: It is. Let’s just say, BUY THE BOOK. It’s not depressing!
MY: Yes, lots of laughs amid the sadness. I swear.
ML: No one will believe you without a smiley face, Mark
MY: I won’t sell out like that.
MY: Oh, OK 🙂
ML: 🙂